Creation of Universe: Different beliefs !

Ya! I feel ameen z more near to ma view!!

nice

Brilliant post has given me a lot to think about. Thumbs Up!!!

QJ: “Even K-1 is sounding good to me”

Finally, an issue that i am passionate about. We have looked for information of this caliber in the last hrs. Your site is greatly appreciated

I’m against Universe expansion:

For example a question: – The universe expand in any radius at light speed: How can accelerate? At what speed expand the diameter (radius x 2)?

This and more questions, doubts, proofs and hypothesis in http://bigbangno.wordpress.com

Thanks.
.-= Luis Biarge´s last blog ..Comments =-.

That is exactly what I was looking for, Thanks

A. Circular Reasoning

In his article ‘The other side of time’ (2000) scientist Victor J. Stenger has written:
“Quantum electrodynamics is a fifty-year-old theory of the interactions of electrons and photons that has made successful predictions to accuracies as great as twelve significant figures. Fundamental to that theory is the spontaneous appearance of electron-positron (anti-electron) pairs for brief periods of time, literally out of “nothing.””
From here he has concluded that our universe may also come literally out of nothing due to quantum fluctuation in the void, and therefore we need not have to imagine that God has done this job.
But is it true that electron-positron (anti-electron) pairs are appearing literally out of “nothing”? Are scientists absolutely certain that the so-called void is a true void indeed? Because here there is a counter-claim also: God is there, and that God is everywhere. So actually nothing is coming out of “nothing”, only something is coming out of something. Here they will perhaps say: as there is no proof for God’s existence so far, so why should one have to believe that the void here is not a true void? But even if there is no proof for God’s existence, still then it can be shown that scientists’ claim that the universe has literally come out of nothing is a pure case of circular reasoning. If believers say that the void is not a true void at all, and if scientists still then hold that it is nothing but a void, then this is only because they are absolutely certain that God does not exist, and also because they think that God’s non-existence is so well-established a fact that it needs no further proof for substantiation. But if they are absolutely certain that God does not exist, then they are also absolutely certain that God is not the architect, designer, creator of our universe, because it is quite obvious that a non-existent God cannot be the architect, designer, etc. So their starting premise is this: God does not exist, and therefore our universe is definitely not the creation of a God. But if they start from the above premise, then will it be very difficult to reach to the same conclusion?
But their approach here could have been somehow different. They could have said: well, regarding void, it is found that there is some controversy. Therefore we will not assume that it is a void, rather we will prove that it is such. Then they could have proceeded to give an alternate explanation for the origin of the universe, in which there will be neither any quantum fluctuation in the void, nor any hand of God to be seen anywhere. And their success here could have settled the matter for all time to come.
By simply ignoring a rumour one cannot kill it, rather it will remain as it is. But if he takes some more trouble on him and exposes that it is nothing but a rumour, then it will die a natural death with no further chance of revival. Let us say that the saying that there is a God and that He is everywhere is nothing but a rumour persisting for thousands of years among mankind. What scientists have done here is this: they have simply ignored the rumour and thus kept it alive. But it would have been far better for them if they could have killed it, as suggested by me.

B. “Circular Reasoning” Case Reexamined

There can be basically two types of universe: (1) universe created by God, supposing that there is a God; (2) universe not created by God, supposing that there is no God. Again universe created by God can also be of three types:
(1a) Universe in which God need not have to intervene at all after its creation. This is the best type of universe that can be created by God.
(1b) Universe in which God has actually intervened from time to time, but his intervention is a bare minimum.
(1c) Universe that cannot function at all without God’s very frequent intervention. This is the worst type of universe that can be created by God.
Therefore we see that there can be four distinct types of universes, and our universe may be any one of the above four types: (1a), (1b), (1c), (2). In case of (1a), scientists will be able to give natural explanation for each and every physical event that has happened in the universe after its origin, because after its creation there is no intervention by God at any moment of its functioning. Only giving natural explanation for its coming into existence will be problematic. In case of (1b) also, most of the events will be easily explained away, without imagining that there is any hand of God behind these events. But for those events where God had actually intervened, scientists will never be able to give any natural explanation. Also explaining origin of the universe will be equally problematic. But in case of (1c), most of the events will remain unexplained, as in this case God had to intervene very frequently. This type of universe will be just like the one as envisaged by Newton: “Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done.” So we can with confidence say that our universe is not of this type, otherwise scientists could not have found natural explanation for most of the physical events. In case of type (2) universe, here also there will be natural explanation for each and every physical event, and there will be natural explanation for the origin of the universe also. So from the mere fact that scientists have so far been able to give natural explanation for each and every physical event, it cannot be concluded that our universe is a type (2) universe, because this can be a type (1a) universe as well. The only difference between type (1a) and type (2) universe is this: whereas in case of (1a) no natural explanation will ever be possible for the origin of the universe, it will not be so in case of (2). Therefore until and unless scientists can give a natural explanation for the origin of the universe, they cannot claim that it is a type (2) universe. And so, until and unless scientists can give this explanation, they can neither claim that the so-called void is a true void. So scientists cannot proceed to give a natural explanation for the origin of the universe with an a priori assumption that the void is a real void, because their failure or success in giving this explanation will only determine as to whether this is a real void or not.

H.S.PAL

This is a great post. It helped me alot. Thanks Also, I don’t believe the Korean’s theory, and not because it is such like a fairy tale. It’s because it goes against dinosaurs & cavemen, how the Earth wasn’t first in the universe, and even if it was, how would all other planets be made? Would God have made other creatures for other planets? Then, there could be living! And stars, the milky way, the sun?? How about that?? Anyhow, thanks again!! XD

Part A. Some Reflections on God and Science
1.
“Tegmark’s Ensembles
Tegmark has recently proposed what he calls “the ultimate ensemble theory” in which all universes that mathematically exist also physically exist (Tegmark 1997). By “mathematical existence,” Tegmark means “freedom from contradiction.” So, universes cannot contain square circles, but anything that does not break a rule of logic exists in some universe.”
(From: The Anthropic Coincidences:
A Natural Explanation
Published in The Skeptical Intelligencer, 3(3, July 1999): pp. 2-17.
By Victor J. Stenger)

So here we see that as per Tegmark mathematical existence implies physical existence. From the following equation of special theory of relativity
t1 = t (1-v2/c2)1/2
one can see that if one can move with the speed of light, then he will be immortal. Because when v = c, then for any value of t, value of t1 will always be zero. Even if value of t is an eternity, till then value of t1 will be zero. So in one frame of reference whole of eternity may pass, but in another frame of reference not a single moment will elapse. Whoever will be in this second reference frame, will be immortal. Because even in the whole time span of an eternity he will not be older by a single second. So from this equation we see that immortality has got mathematical existence. But as per Tegmark mathematical existence implies physical existence. Therefore we can conclude that immortality has got physical existence also. This means that there is an immortal being in this universe.

2.

In his article “Ten Things Wrong with Cosmological Creationism” Richard Carrier has written:“When we posit a god, we are left with almost no predicted observations–theism does not predict any physical feature of the universe that we can check.”
But this is definitely not true. First of all one will have to decide whose God one is considering. Is it Abraham’s God? Is it Jacob’s God? Or is it mystic-philosopher’s God? If it is mystic-philosopher’s God, then definitely some physical features of the universe can be predicted that can be checked and verified by the scientists. Philosopher’s God is beyond good and evil, one, all pervading, spaceless, timeless, changeless, immortal, etc. Since God is all pervading and spaceless at the same time, so volume of the entire universe must have to be zero. Otherwise, how can that God be spaceless? So, this is one prediction that can be made. The next prediction that can also be made is this: existence of a spaceless, timeless being in this universe implies the relativity of space and time. I have written a book in Bengali (published in 2003) in which I have shown in some great details as to how a spaceless, timeless God implies the relativity of space and time. And this last prediction has already been found to be correct. Since God is one and since everything in this universe has sprung from that one God, then everything in this universe must be ultimately reducible to one thing. This is another prediction that can be made.
Another prediction that comes to my mind is this: God is said to be timeless. If God is really there and if that God is timeless, then there is some sort of timelessness in this universe. For timelessness to be there, time must have to be unreal by some means or other. So God-theory predicts that time must have to be unreal by some means or other. And science has shown that it is just the case. At the speed of light time becomes unreal. If there is no apparent reason for time becoming unreal, there is at least one reason as to why it should be. And that reason is God’s timelessness.
One more prediction: God is said to be immortal. So here God-theory predicts that immortality must be found to be written somewhere, in some scientific theory or law or equation. Here also we find that science has not betrayed us. From the following equation of special theory of relativity we can see that if one can move with the speed of light, then he will be immortal.
t1 = t (1-v2/c2)1/2
Now one question will definitely arise here. Is deathlessness same as timelessness? Is there no difference? This question arises because I have used the same equation for showing as to how one can be timeless as well as immortal. The answer to this question will be a very big YES. Death means some sort of change. I am very much alive at this moment. But at the very next moment I may die. But in a timeless world this very next moment will never come. So a timeless being can never die.
So, it is not true that God-theory does not predict any physical feature of the universe that we can check. As per the definition of a good scientific theory given by Karl Popper, God-theory can be considered to be a very good scientific theory. Because it can predict something that can be checked and verified, and so it can also be falsified. Only those who are heavily prejudiced against God will decline to admit it.
Scientist Victor J. Stenger has written:
“Mystics state that their experience of oneness with God and the universe cannot be described in scientific terms. The more rational statement is that this experience is all in their heads.”
But the problem is that if this God is in mystics’ heads only and not in the outside world, then whatever predictions can be made from God-theory, if at all correct, should be correct in their heads only, and not in the outside world. But since some of these predictions have already been found to be correct in the outside world, then the more rational statement is that this God is in the outside world and not in mystics’ heads only. Or, it may be that, these mystics’ heads are so very big that, like God, the entire outside world is also in their heads. That is why predictions made from God-theory have been found to be correct in the outside world. In that case mystics’ heads must be as big as the universe itself.

3.
Generally two things are claimed about science:
a) Science always deals with something that is real, and not with something that is unreal, imaginary. It is in man’s power imagining anything and everything, and actually he has imagined so many things, so many worlds, and so many beings. But it is not the job of science to prove that all these imagined things, imagined worlds, imagined beings are as real as this world.
b) Only science, and no other discipline, can give us the true picture of reality.
Keeping these two claims about science in our mind let us proceed further to see what conclusion can be drawn from the following equation of special theory of relativity:
t1 = t (1-v2/c2)1/2
From this equation we have already seen that if one can move with the speed of light, then he will live eternally. So we see that here science has dealt with the idea of immortality, and that it has also shown as to how that immortality can be attained. But if the claim about science that it only deals with what is real is true, then we must conclude that like change and mortality, immortality is also a real feature of this universe. Otherwise, why has science dealt with that? But immortality can be a real feature of this universe if, and only if, there is at least one immortal being in this universe. So the presence of the above equation in a scientific theory clearly indicates that there is at least one immortal being in this universe.
But if one is loathe admitting the existence of God, then one will have to admit that while in most of the cases science deals with something that is real, sometimes it also deals with something that is unreal, imaginary, and untrue. In that case one will also have to abandon the claim that only science can give us the true picture of reality. In the above equation science has created an impression that attaining immortality is not an impossibility whereas actually no one can be immortal. So here science has simply baffled us, confused us, misled us. And if we are allowed to use a very bad term here – I hope we will be pardoned for that – then we can even say that by showing that it is possible to be immortal, science has given us a very nice and beautiful bluff. Like so many religious bluffs, it is also a bluff, in this case given by science itself.
So the gist of the whole matter is simply this. Science cannot hold the following two propositions as true simultaneously:
1) God, or, any other immortal being, does not exist,
2) Only science can give us the true picture of reality.
If any one of the above two propositions is true, then the other one must be false.

4.

Mystics who have claimed that they have direct experience of God have repeatedly and unanimously told us one thing: time is unreal. If one claims that God does not exist and that mystical experience is nothing but a mere hallucination, then he must show that mystics were wrong in holding that time was unreal. Here common sense says that to do this one must have to show that time is not unreal and that in no way can it be unreal. But here science has done just the opposite; it has shown as to how and when time will become unreal. But to show that mystical experience is nothing but a hallucination, one must have to show that mystics’ view regarding time was completely mistaken. As science has miserably failed to do that, so by what kind of logic is it established that mystical experience is a hallucination? If mystical experience can no longer be discarded as a mere hallucination, then by what kind of logic is it established that God does not exist?
When man did not know that time could be unreal, his labeling of mystical experience as a hallucination was fully justified, logical and reasonable. But once it has dawned on him that at the speed of light time could become unreal, his discarding mystical experience as a hallucination is totally unjustified, illogical and unreasonable. And, it is unscientific also. As per definition a hallucination is a sensory perception without a source in the external world. When the mystic says that time is unreal, he is definitely in touch with some state where time is unreal. If he were not, he would not have said time was unreal. But he wrongly and erroneously thinks – and believes also – that this timeless state is in the real, external world. But if mystical experience is nothing but a hallucination, then as per its definition this timeless state cannot be in the real world. Because, if this timeless state is in the real world, then mystical experience is not a hallucination. And if mystical experience is not a hallucination, then it cannot be said that God does not exist. But since atheists and scientists claim that God does not exist, then mystical experience must have to be a hallucination. So, if necessary, then even by hook or crook, it will have to be established that mystical experience is nothing but a hallucination. For that it must have to be ensured that this timeless state can never be in the external world. And for that, it must further have to be ensured that time can never be unreal in the external world. But we find that this last condition is not fulfilled at all. It is not fulfilled because science has shown that at the speed of light time becomes unreal. Since time can also be unreal in the external world, then there is every possibility that this timeless state is in the external world. And if this timeless state is in the external world, then mystical experience cannot be called a hallucination. And if mystical experience is not a hallucination, then God is real.

5.

Science is supposed to deal with something that is real, that is existent, that is of this world, and not with something that is unreal, imaginary, and non-existent. If God does not exist, then that God is a fictitious, imaginary Being. Whatever has been said about that imaginary God cannot be true, cannot be real. If God does not exist, then there is no one in this universe about whom it can be said that He is immortal, spaceless, timeless, all pervading etc. So, if God does not exist, then the terms immortality, spacelessness, timelessness etc. will have no meaning at all. These are all imaginary concepts attributed to some imaginary Being. Then why will science, which is supposed to be concerned with only what is real, what is existent, what is of this world, show that all these imaginary concepts have got some sort of scientific explanation? Why will science show that if one can move with the speed of light, then one can be immortal, timeless, etc.? If God is also not real, then how do those imaginary concepts attributed to that imaginary being somehow become part of a real world by being explained scientifically?
Has science ever been found to give proof for the existence of any non-real, imaginary thing? Has science ever been found to give proof for the existence of any non-real, imaginary being? Has science ever been found to offer explanation for the occurrence of any imaginary event? Is science famous for doing all these things? Has science proved that ghosts are real? Has science proved that there is a place called heaven where every human being goes after his or her death? Does science think that real human blood can come out of the wounds of a stone or wooden Jesus? Can one give any single instance where science has supported any single human superstition or folly? If science has never been found to give proof for any single imaginary thing or being, and if science has never been found to offer explanation for any single imaginary event, then why is it that it has on its own given explanation for these imaginary concepts? Why is there an exception here at all? What is the reason behind this? What does it want to make us understand by giving scientific explanation to these imaginary concepts? Does it want to make us understand that these are not imaginary concepts at all? Does it want to make us understand that these are real concepts having meaning and significance in some real context in a real world? Does it want to make us understand God is real?
Perhaps this is the greatest irony in the whole history of our human civilization so far: science has explained that very God whose existence it has vehemently denied. If God does not exist, then those scientists who have given us special theory of relativity should not be called proper scientists at all. And if God does not exist, then special theory of relativity is not a proper science at all; it is simply a pseudo-science, something like astrology. To call it a science is an insult to human reason and understanding.

Part B. SOME RESPONSES RECEIVED

The problem is that in order for this equation to be true you have to be talking about a material object(being). When V=C you are saying that the object is going the speed of light. This can’t happen as the mass becomes infinite at C. In short you would turn into your own black hole. Furthermore, it would take an infinite amount of energy to get to C. All that is impossible. Now if you are talking about an immaterial being, then none of the equation applies.

An immortal being in literature can usually do stuff. The type of immortality described here consists of existence as a popsicle, frozen in time. This would be no fun at all!

OK: a timeless being can’t do anything because events happen in time. Sure you’d be immortal at the speed of light, because time would be frozen for you. Behold the incredible frozen God!

Predictions only count if, well, they are made in advance of the finding. Already knowing the findings of relativity theory and then claiming that your version of God predicts them is, if not delusional, at least cheating.

Plus I don’t see any good reason to accept Tegmark’s proposition that mathematical possibility implies physical existence anyway. With only one universe to observe we can’t make ANY substantial claims about the probability of any of its properties. We have no way of knowing whether physical laws could have varied at all, let alone by how much. Theological skepticism doesn’t need multiple universes to explain why this particular universe is only 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% inimical to life as we know it instead of 100% because you can’t determine the odds when all you’ve seen is one result. Maybe there are multiple universes, maybe there aren’t, maybe all mathematically possible universes exist, maybe they don’t. None of these situations has positive implications for the existence of God absent evidence that God is not imaginary.

Part C. MY RESPONSE

Regarding Tegmark’s argument: Here my main intension was not to prove the existence of God, but to expose the hollowness of his argument. If scientists claim that mathematics can prove the existence of multiverses, then I will also claim that mathematics has already proved the existence of a timeless, deathless being, in which case we no longer need any multiverse theory to explain the fact that our universe is life-supporting.
Regarding immortality: It may be there is no immortal being in this universe. It may be there is no God. But the fact still remains that science has shown that in this universe to be immortal is not an impossibility. For that only one will have to be massless, because Einstein has shown that anything having zero rest-mass will have the speed of light. So, if there is a being that is massless, then that being will be immortal. If human being possesses a soul, and if that soul is massless, then that soul will also be immortal. Here the question is not whether a massless being does at all exist. Neither is it a question whether human being really possesses a soul or not. The real question is: why in this universe has it been found that it is not impossible to be immortal? The real question is: why has Mother Nature kept such a provision in its scheme of things? And, for whom has it kept that provision?
Now regarding cheating: This charge of cheating brought against me is baseless, as anyone going through my article carefully can find it out himself. Let me first quote what has been written in one of the responses:
“Predictions only count if, well, they are made in advance of the finding. Already knowing the findings of relativity theory and then claiming that your version of God predicts them, is, if not delusional, at least cheating.”
So, there is no doubt that I have cheated. But the person who has brought this accusation against me has forgotten that in my article I have mentioned that at least five predictions can be made from God-theory, out of which only three have so far been found to be correct. Let me repeat them once again:
a) Space and time must be relative,
b) Time must have to be unreal by some means or other,
c) Immortality must be found to be written somewhere, in some scientific theory or law or equation.
d) Volume of the entire universe must be found to be zero,
e) Everything in this universe must be ultimately reducible to one-thing,
In the first three cases above he might have said that I have cheated, because, really, these are the findings of relativity theory. But if he holds that I have cheated in the other two cases also, then will he please take the trouble to give us the name(s) of the scientific theory/theories of which these are the findings? If he cannot, then he should admit that he has brought a false and baseless charge against me, for which he should apologize. Actually, by showing that these two predictions can also be made from God-theory, I have taken a very great risk. Because if they do not come true, then one day God-theory will eventually be falsified. And then there will be no hope left for us.
But still I think there will be some hopes left. At least what the Russian scientist Andrei Linde has said to Tim Folger in a completely different context raises some hopes in us. Let us first see what he has actually said:
“When I ask Linde whether physicists will ever be able to prove that the multiverse is real, he has a simple answer. “Nothing else fits the data,” he tells me. “We don’t have any alternative explanation for the dark energy; we don’t have any alternative explanation for the smallness of the mass of the electron; we don’t have any alternative explanation for many properties of particles.
“What I am saying is, look at it with open eyes. These are experimental facts, and these facts fit one theory: the multiverse theory. They do not fit any other theory so far. I’m not saying these properties necessarily imply the multiverse theory is right, but you asked me if there is any experimental evidence, and the answer is yes. It was Arthur Conan Doyle who said, ‘When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth’”.”
[From: Science’s Alternative to an Intelligent Creator: the Multiverse theory, By Tim Folger, published online November 10, 2008, DISCOVER Magazine.]
So, here lies the hope. First, eliminate all the impossible theories. Then the theory that remains, even if improbable, must be the truth.
As per the scientists God does not exist, because so far there is no proof for His existence, and perhaps there will never be any. But it is also true that man believes in God. So, it is a fact that man believes in God in spite of the fact that there is no God. This fact also requires some sort of explanation. Some explanations have been offered so far by some eminent thinkers and philosophers, but none of these theories are adequate enough to explain certain aspects of that imaginary God. So it can be said that all their theories, all their hypotheses are failed theories, failed hypotheses.
If God does not exist, then God did not create man, instead man has created God. So it is quite expected that he will create that God in such a way that He can satisfy all his needs. Man will definitely not create a God who is not merciful. He will definitely not create a God who is not immortal, because a mortal God cannot bestow immortality on others. For that purpose God Himself must have to be immortal. These points are easily understood. So we can understand why man-created God is benevolent, merciful, all-loving, all powerful, immortal, etc. & etc. But what about that God who is spaceless, timeless? Why was it necessary to imagine that God as such? What are the specific needs of man that can only be met by a spaceless, timeless God? If God did not have these attributes, then what would have been lost to man? A real God might have to have these attributes; there might be some philosophical justifications for that. But why should an imaginary God? Does anybody have any answer? Then what about Hindu’s Brahma who is indifferent to man’s sorrows and sufferings? What about that Brahma who is without any qualities, without any attributes (Nirguna Brahma)? A Nirguna Brahma cannot have benevolence even, so He cannot even do any single benevolent act. So what purpose does such a Brahma serve to man? Man can easily do without Him. And so, why in the first place will he take the trouble on him to create such a Brahma, and then declare that He doesn’t care for us? All such queries remain unanswered, unexplained. So all these theories, all these hypotheses so far offered to explain man’s belief in God are impossible theories, impossible hypotheses. So, according to Konan Doyle, they need to be eliminated mercilessly. Therefore the only theory that ultimately remains is the correct theory. The theory that simply says: Man believes in God, because there is a God.
If our atheist and scientist friends are not satisfied at all with this theory, then they are always at liberty to offer their own theory here. But whatever new theory they are going to offer, that theory must possess one essential property that none of their old theories had possessed so far. It must have the capability of giving a satisfactory answer to our long-standing and so far unresolved question: WHY SHOULD AN IMAGINARY GOD HAVE TO BE SPACELESS, TIMELESS AT ALL? TO SATISFY WHAT BASIC NEEDS OF MAN WAS HE COMPELLED TO CREATE A GOD WITH SUCH PARTICULAR ATTRIBUTES? If they cannot offer any such theory, then they should keep their mouth shut and accept our theory as the only correct theory here: MAN BELIEVES IN GOD, BECAUSE THERE IS A GOD. THE GOD WE BELIEVE IN IS A REAL GOD. AND A REAL GOD MUST HAVE TO BE SPACELESS, TIMELESS, AS OTHERWISE HE WILL BE BOUND BY SPACE-TIME.

H.S.PAL

On Friday the government advised more people living close to the nuclear site to evacuate because basic goods were in short supply, while assuring them that radiation levels had not risen.